Just got my 14000 points posted for the summer megatons....yeah!!!!
I received mine, too.
My summer MegaBonus points were a pleasant surprise this morning as I awoke in a very pleasant FI in Moncton, NB. 14,000 as expected for 8 brands.
Woot woot! got mine as well
The first brand didn't count, correct? My first stay was a Residence Inn and despite staying several times throughout the promotion in a Residence Inn, it wasn't credited as a brand.
Well, I don't mean to ruin this great string of successes, but my brand points haven't posted yet. It's possible these points are being posted in batches and I wasn't in the first group. I'll keep watching.
Believe me, I'll notice a 20,000 point increase in my account, whether that happens today, tomorrow, or at the beginning of next week.
Pretty impressive to get 20,000. I was really excited to get 12,000.
It took a bit of planning to hit 11 brands in 11 stays. Had it not been for the additional bonus points, I probably would have visited my usual 5 or 6 brands.
bejacob It is more likely the algorithm did not know how to count to 11 the marriott IT dept would need to take socks off and start using toes. Let us know what happens.
@PEYMANAGEMENT ROFLMAO!! @bejacob, hopefully your points post soon as well. Kudos on racking up 20K; I was thrilled with 8K.
Good stuff pey. As Julia writes below, b.e. - you'll get 'em by 10/31....unless you don't .
Hey, what else can she say, she's in a Sean Spicer type role when it comes to point posting .
Keep on keepin' on - cuz that's what we do when it comes to tracking stays, points, and bonuses - good luck pained - ha
Got 'em. Like a few others, I was shorted 2,000 points. With the quest to LTG in full swing, every points counts, so I'll be chasing those down.
We'd have it no other way - go man, go.
I am also on a quest to gain LTG. Just need 100K more points. Come on Fall MegaBonus points!!
Same for me. No award as of yet.
bejacob I am in the same boat, still stuck at 138K points. Expecting 16K
I only received 6,000. Ewww, but I'll take it. LOL!
Got mine as well!
Got mine -- Just 4,000 since I didn't do much travel during the summer. Now back to the grind getting the SPG bonus pts. Aiming for the 25 night 10,000 SPG pts bonus as well as 75 nights in 2017
Yep, mine arrived today.
Mine are in! 20k in the bank. Glad to see them post and post correctly.
mine posted today
Posted, but incorrectly. Missing 2k points for a brand
As Mr Whipple mentions...
My brand points (26,000) were partially posted. 24,000 showed up today. Called the CS folks and they were confused but think the points are being put in by certain cutoff dates (they couldn't name these dates) so I should be patient until Nov. 4th to see if the missing 2000 shows up.
This doesn't seem to hold water, but I'll wait. The last stay representing the missing 2000 was one night after the 24,000th stay. The one thing that says this "could be" is that the final stay was also the only stay I had in September (9/1-9/2). So, just maybe September summer brand stays are delayed????
My brand bonus points posted today (Friday). I was also shorted 2,000 points. Odd since my last new brand stay was on August 27 which was credited to my account on August 30. I have no doubt that folks like painedplatinum and me (any many others) can provide an accurate list of each of the brands we visited during the promo period.
communitymanagers, can you shed any light on why several of us are missing 2,000 points from this part of the summer bonus? More importantly, what do we need to do to get those additional 2,000 points?
bejacob I'm sure you're not, but are you counting your first stay in the Bonus? The extra points were for different brands, beyond your first. Again, I assumed you knew that, but just in case . . . .
I thought of that too when I noticed others were missing 2,000 points, so I went back and checked. I appreciate the comment since I almost posted the same thing last night.
I definitely visited 11 brands. The first one was a SHS, so that didn't earn brand or stay points. After that I hit 10 more (R, TPS, FI, RI, CY, M, AU, JW, AC, and ED) all paid stays. The points for the stays showed up correctly during the promo.
I did have one redemption over the summer, though I did not include that in my calculations.
Call and state you are missing 2,000 points. They can count your stays on the phone with you, and as long as you are correct (even though, I believe at this point they are assuming you are correct), you will get 2,000 points awarded - mine posted as such (and I was told in my "Activity" this would show up after my last brand stay in September with a date of today, and that's where it was listed):
Absolutely do not be patient until Nov. 4 - call back and get your 2,000 points - they aren't posting separately, there is definitely a glitch in the calculation system. I had 2 stays for different brands on the last 2 days of the Summer MegaBonus, so if Sept points weren't posting correctly, I should have been missing 4,000 points, not just 2,000.
I read with joy that some members have received the additional points. It is not my case and I have had stays that qualify to obtain them. Any suggestion will be well received. Perhaps I am not eligible as in most cases. communitymanagers
Thank you for reaching out! Some members have been receiving their points this week but all members will be receiving their points by the end of the month. If you have not received your points by October 31st please reach back out!
I got mine too! Only 4,000 because I stayed at two Courtyards. Really, if you stayed at the same brand twice, they should have counted that but I digress.
They did! Once for a stay, once for a brand! Ok, that definitely wasn't what you were looking for, so I'll apologize in advance.
I have not received mine yet either. Looks like I'm in the majority...
wonder what the hold up is
Oh no. It seems I have spoken too soon out of excitement. Upon further review, I am also missing 2000 points. I was supposed to get 22k and only ended up with 20k from this posting. Not sure what do do about this one.
Looks like my brand bonus points were added to my account this morning.
I only stayed a three different brands, so I only got 4,000 points... BUT those 4,000 points took my account to a total of 2,000,355 points.
That's right... Out of all things, the Summer MegaBonus brand points took me to Lifetime Platinum status - on Friday the 13th (local time).
cmeyer, congratulations on your Lifetime Platinum status!!! That's a lot of demonstrated loyalty, and very cool to have belated bonus points push you over-the-top on a Friday the 13th!!! No more worries on "having" to reach 75 nights! Now you can play the field!!! Congrats again!!!
Thanks a lot nationwide !
I have no idea if/when my business travel might slow down.
So it's good to know that there will be free breakfast and potential upgrades forever (or at least until the merger is done).
Dramatic way to get over the top cmeyer . Congrats & check out a Starwood or three!
Thanks, platpboy4ever !
And yes, now that the pressure is gone, I'm planning to check out some Starwood properties, if I get the chance.
As several have reported on Insiders - check for accuracy (gosh, IT might make a mistake, who would think!).
Here's a post on FlyerTalk that indicates there may be a glitch that may impact some but not others;
My brand bonus posted today. Incorrect total. Contacted MR phone rep who reviewed my posted stays and saw that I was 2,000 points short (totaling all separate brands after the first brand, of course), then these were manually posted to my account. The rep was not able to identify which brand got overlooked in the calculation.
So it would appear that if the brand bonus is being calculated automatically, there's a bug in the program (even just involving one particular brand, so it might not have an impact on everyone else's brand bonus totals).
Anyhow, it's possibly worth double-checking for accuracy
My points posted this morning - leaving the account balance at 999k I have no idea why getting it back to a million was important to me, but it was. Once this week's stay, food, and go green points post, it will be time to atart booking next year's vacations. All things considered, I think the summer brand bonus program was quite the success!
Definitely is a bug somewhere - I called this AM, and apparently the MR hotline has been getting hammered with people calling missing 2,000 points. So, I'm going to assume one of the brands that we all share was not included in the calculation. They awarded the missing 2,000 points with no hesitation, even though the MR rep counted my brands incorrectly - twice. After saying "We have been having many problems with members calling stating they are missing 2,000 points, and we haven't figured out yet why that is, but we've been awarding the 2,000 points". After stating that and recounting my brands for the 3rd time - he found the one he was missing in his count.
As mentioned, everyone keep in mind that your 1st brand stay is eliminated from the calculation and DOES NOT count for 2,000 brand points, EVEN IF you stay at that brand again.
I was wondering about that. I know I had 7 but got 12K points.
IIRC, the terms said something like bonus starting with your second brand. But then the summer was a fog to me so I do not know for certain.
I have some more info on why some folks were shorted 2,000. For some reason, the JW Marriott and the Marriott brands are not being recognized by the system as different brands. Anyone who stayed at both brands over the summer will likely end up 2,000 points short.
They are working on a fix, so it may be resolved soon. If you call, the customer service rep will check your stays and manually add the 2,000 points. I was told that once the system issue is resolved, it is POSSIBLE that I might get an extra 2,000 points added to my account. While I'm not expecting that, I wouldn't say no to a some extra points.
Best thing to do if you're missing those 2,000 points is to call. They will be added manually and you MIGHT get them added again once the system issue is sorted out. Seems fair.
I was missing 2000 pts also and I called after reading your post. Good suggestion bejacob! And the lady i talked to was very nice and she mentioned that the possible cause is like you mentioned, the JW Marriott and Marriott being counted as one.
I got mine today. All is good. Happy and safe travels to everyone
I received 10.000 I am missing 2000 as well!!!!
Read this comment
Many thanks but in my case this does not seem to be the problem, since my stays included nights in other brands. Those included nights at other brands like Farfield Inn and Suites, Moxy, Rennaissance and Autograph collection in addition to the stays at Marriott
Maybe one of your other brands got left out (Moxy, perhaps?).
Call customer service. They will review your stays, count up the brands and subtract 1 (since the first brand visited doesn't earn bonus points) and multiply the total by 2,000. If it turns out you were shorted 2,000 points, they will add them for you while you're on the phone. The entire process will probably take less than 5 minutes (not counting any time spent waiting on hold).
bejacob, I was missing 2,000 points as well... ugh! Spoke to Andrea on the Rewards line, and she added them very quickly. Interestingly, I always use erc's brilliant "Combine two accounts" response on the interactive response line, and I get right through to an operator. Andrea did share that they have been flooded with calls since yesterday's postings, and they don't know what caused the glitch. However, in true Marriott Mega Bonus form, "if people just call in, we can fix it right away." How many people are going to get jilted out of 2,000 points because they trust the math and don't know to call in? This stuff happens so often I think it can't be anything but part of the strategy. Don't give people what they earned, and if they catch you, just say "aw shucks, here let me fix that for you." That they haven't or won't admit there is a mistake, and provide assurances that they will proactively fix it, tells you everything you need to know.
I got mine today, but not sure if it is correct. In the future can they somehow denote a stay in our activity page that qualifies for a promotion? Like perhaps place a P or SP (for Summer Promotion) beside the stay. I know that only paid stays count and after the first stay, but it will help when confirming the calculation. Just a suggestion..
So, my adjusted 2,000 points posted, under the entry "Goodwill Adjustment." I do not wish to sound ungrateful, however, why do we have to get a "goodwill adjustment?" This makes it look like some sort of charitable contribution. Why doesn't it say "mega bonus?" I earned those 2,000 points through the summer mega bonus, and it should reflect as such. I appreciate the adjustment as much as the next guy, but I'm no charity case and I shouldn't get the points just because I called in and complained. I should get them because I earned them and you awarded them per the terms and conditions. I am so sick and tired of chasing points....
I feel the same way when they do that to me..should leave out the term "Goodwill" and just call it an adjustment.
For those who do not want the "Goodwill Adjustment", ask your MR hotline rep to post it similar to my comment above: https://insiders.marriottrewards.com/thread/52137#comment-227989. It should post with the current date, but will be posted after your last brand stay in your Activity.
I think the blame for the "Goodwill Adjustment" lies with the rep who posted your points, not with Marriott in general. Here's how mine showed up.
As to the bigger issue of missing points, in this one case it looks like a mistake in the programming that caused JW and M to be counted as the same brand. I believe this was an honest mistake. Marriott knows what happened and is doing what it can to fix it. At the moment, that means manually posting the points.
As for how many people will end up 2,000 points short becuse they didn't call, that's hard to guess. I was told Marriott knows about the problem and is working on a fix. I think that means eventually those folks will get the additional points. It's possible even those of who called and got the points added will see an extra 2,000 points show up when the issue is fixed. If that turns out to be the case, maybe we all ended up with a "Goodwill Adjustment."
bejacob, I "liked" your response, and genuinely appreciate the optimistic point of view. That said, even if this is a simple programming error, how could they let that happen? They had months to get this right. Shoot, they didn't even have to roll it out this week. They had until the end of the month, per their own expectation setting. I just find the serial mistakes unacceptable. Professional, well led organizations just don't perform like this consistently over time. I have high standards for myself and the companies I do business with - I want to see our Marriott live up to its own reputed high standard.
Number of repeated customer complaint is a performance measure that many companies hold on their top level scorecards. In my two years of participating on here, there are three to five things that recur that should bubble up to the highest executive level in the company. I just do not understand why this ineffectiveness is allowed to linger.
This one I believe is a simple programming oversight - matched "marriott" and forgot that "jw marriott" encompasses "marriott", or they simply left "jw marriott" out thinking that "marriott" covers it. And, possibly not enough testing.
But, would you rather chase points, or chase down management because every time you stay in a Marriott you have room issues? Neither are ideal, but if my stays can be issue-lite, and I only have to chase points every once and a while (or chase them from a bonus they don't necessarily have to offer me), we still have a pretty good thing with Marriott.
Hopefully the merger will make some of these lingering things go away...
o0o0o0o0o0o...points!, In customer service it is "The tyranny of the "or" vs the genius of the "and"". Customers should expect at Marriott, the expected rooms, and if something is off prompt remediation and they should also expect that their points are added as required to their accounts. I have chased points maybe 10 times in the last two years, but not once have i had to chase Marriott because they forgot to bill me enough. Four times i had to chase them because i was charged too much. I can take the billing stuff because it is complex, but can not take the points. If they can bill they can give points.
peymanagement - Not that this is a "you should feel lucky with only 10 times in 10 years" of chasing points comments, but I'm probably close to 10 times this year alone. I had to deal with a "charged too much" stay this past weekend, on something that should have been an upgrade instead of a room change. Front Desk said "Oh, he's new and still learning" in regards to the person who checked me in. In 4 separate Europe stays, none of the 4 Marriott stays received 5x points from the Visa - they all were 1x. Chase rep stated that some hotels in Europe do not post correctly to their system as Marriott brands - and one of them was a base FS Marriott! London Heathrow Renaissance, I'll never in my lifetime figure out how in the world they guessculate their points based on rates that don't even exist for any room at in the hotel - in ANY currency, yet the lower rate ends up on my bill and with a point conversion factor that somewhere between the non-existent Marriott Motel 3 and a Residence Inn! Unfortunately, probably every Marriott member who has been a member for a year or two would have a "I had to call to correct..." story if they knew something wasn't correct, and I agree, that by no means makes it "OK".
I also agree that it is frustrating, that neither you, I, nor any other customer should have to deal with those issues; the explanations usually don't connect with what we are told (or someone in a similar situation is told something different), etc - but the service quality is good enough over the years that most of us do not leave - we unfortunately have been conditioned to accept it. If 500-800 million members left and, say went to Hilton, things may change, but enough of us stick around that these 'minor' glitches, etc that we complain about and wished they were fixed - why fix them if we are going to complain but continue to come back to earn points, status, upgrades, etc and Marriott's bottom line continues to grow. There's no (business $$$) incentive to fix the issue... And I'm one of those "Oh, that's just Marriott screwing the pooch on IT stuff again", I begrudgingly take it because it is still the best option for me, and am happy those times I don't have to call to correct something that I feel like should not constantly get screwed up. But, from all of these glitches, the ones who verify and are thorough, become better educated, etc on the system, rules, glitches, etc and how to handle them, are able to quickly (most times) deal with them and be on our way. If the room, quality of service, etc, was anything like having to chase points and the frustrations behind that, I'm sure this 'Insiders' site would "whyIhateMarriott.com".
ten times in two years,
The only reason I see this issue with the promotion differently is that for almost all points shorting problems, the blame lies with the individual property. The promo is from Marriott itself.
Others have noted in past discussions, that if the hotels were held accountable for incorrectly posting points, the problem might almost disappear. So while I think there is an ongoing problem with points posting properly, I'm giving Marriott a pass on this issue for three reasons. One, they identified the problem and let us know what it is. Two, they posted the missing points immediately. Three, they are working on a fix that should correct the problem for everyone affected, not just those who call.
Incorrect points from hotels. That's still a huge problem. I just see it as a separate issue from this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to bash Marriott, especially thier IT department when warranted (see Marriott IT's MegaBonus Fail (again)). In this case, I think they did the right thing and did so in a timely manner.
I draw absolutely no distinction whatsoever between corporate Marriott and their hotels, be they franchisee or company owned. The name on the sign is Marriott. The brand standards are Marriott. Marriott has decided which property management companies and outsourced business partners to which they will affix their name and brand. They are on the hook for performance, and unfortunately for the franchisee, they are associated with a corporate name for good or for bad. I am unwilling to let Marriott off the hook for their in poor performance in IT and elsewhere any more than I will accept poor customer service at the property. We simply disagree on this point. Marriott is too big and too capable to be guilty of such repeated poor performance, no matter where it occurs.
Just wrapped up (no, not literally right now - 2 am) another millennial weekend wedding event (seems to be my social life these days). This one was a doozy - virtually a travel industry trade show. We had Marriott big wheels, former Marriott executives, conference planners who booked more rooms in a month than our big dogs stay in a year combined (I mean hundreds of thousands of rooms and millions of dollars in revs) and a whole slew of well heeled millennial business travelers.
I was going to write a post - but reading the comments above by veteran Marriott loyalists, mr whip, pey, be and n'wide, I figured this is actually a better spot in that, I didn't need the broad exposure of the entire site, plus it actually demonstrates my conclusion from the evening's interactions. This is a reply of reality, not resignation.
1) Let's not underestimate Marriott's frustration concern over their IT capabilities. What we must realize is that for all of our irritations (and Marriott execs agree, they are real) they are in the scope of things, if not immaterial, not the highest priority. In an avoidance of perfect being the enemy of the good, Marriott is still zeroing on operating systems platforms and the courting of SPG, a (not only, but a key one) key asset of the acquisition (others being strategic clout and leverage, which I will discuss later).
2) As is often the case, any merger has duplication - Big Thom is no longer with Marriott. He is an entrepreneurial superstar and didn't really need to report to anyone - no hard feelings, Fleuck is highly regarded and brings the added value of sending a message to SPGers, but Big Thom is like many highly successful folks (many in this forum), he can run his own show.
3) I was surprised (yes, even hard nosed erc) at the planners discussion about Marriott's market clout. Marriott has always been a tough, tough negotiator (even back in the 'high values' Mormon days), but now they truly are the straw that stirs the drink. You think we have it tough asking for consideration for suites, certs upgrades etc - I was speaking to folks that book 5,000 night events and whereas Marriott is way too smooth to have a 'my way or the highway' approach, they make it clear, they can succeed with or without the gig.
4) Insiders barely rates a blip on the screen (which we knew, and that's fine). The action is with the influencers (interestingly enough that receive revenue from Marriott in a symbiotic fashion. So when Plat Premiers write in saying, "hey we should get club lounge privileges at the Ritz" and we all go "wow, that's a great idea", perhaps we should first realize that the same Premier spending $200+ on a room doesn't even get points for a $100 dinner. Reach for the stars and you'll end up with a hyper extended elbow.
5) and last, only because I've written enough and have to hit the road - this post above. Like politics or solving the poverty or hunger issues - they will always be a wide and reasonable divergence of view points. How many times have we discuss the same irritation points only to have a newbie toss a legitimate wet blanket over it by saying, "I love Marriott, and am so pleased that they provide the opportunity for "free (as opposed to the correctly stated, "earned" - since points are currency) vacation".
Similar to above, look at b.e.'s response - reasonable and accurate, but highlighting the dilution of the impact of some concerns voiced by moderate (see, I'm not even involved in this one) participants.
6) and that brings me to IAH's "crickets" - I got a better feel for mods and what we have always said about just being the messenger - but what we do ask is that mods respond as quickly (even if it is to say, the Team says this or, we're tracking it, or the policy stays as is - in more artful language of course), anyway, please respond to Insiders questions as quickly as you do to Status Challenges and Birthday elite night concerns.
One final note - no one, and I do mean no one could answer my Mobile App, Win Lifetime of Travel Contest question
Ok, on the road - ironically next weekend in Denver (where I won't eat the chocolate or smoke the 'weed') to another wedding, this time made up of big dog Hilton players - good stuff.
Keep you feet on the ground, we're highly respected, possibly valued customers (you of course, won't get anyone to state otherwise - these are very smart operators), but minor impact players - act accordingly and keep sharing ideas, they become more valuable as we go on (if Marriott hammers OTAs your 150 nights a year, "don't mean diddly squat").
Keep on keepin' on Insiders - Great day to be alive.
Great write up erc, It sounds like the Marriott executives have their heads stuck in the clouds and have forgot the opening slide to many service quality/customer service presentation. How do you loose customers? .........................One at a time!
That's a nice thought and for start up entrepreneurs that I hang out with, true to this day. Unfortunately, we are seeing new creatures roaming the fields of commerce, where the individual customer, albeit certainly significant, isn't as vital to financial results. Amazon, Google, Apple, even a Netflix (and I dare say Marriott) show so much capital market appreciation through other ventures that we've lost a good bit of leverage (perhaps hopefully, only for the time being).
Here's another example of the numbers Marriott plays with (and remember, they actively invest in a whole variety of ventures, like PlacePass, the 'experience' firm): https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2017/10/16/marriott-invested-13m-in-this-companys-founding.html?ana=e_me_set… a $13 million investment in 2001 in a local (to me and Marriott) procurement service company, earning back initial investment in dividends and distributions and then getting a $650 million payment when the firm was sold to Aramark (pain's neighbor).
Here's more reading for the interested - JP Morgan and affinity cards - draw your own conclusions about the Chase Marriott card https://skift.com/2017/10/16/chase-sapphire-reserve-card-buzz-could-be-a-problem-for-united-airlines/?utm_campaign=Daily…
All I can say is thank goodness for our good pals at SPG (and Airbnb), keeping 'em honest. Go man, go.
We are happy to respond to let members know when we are working on a request. We currently do this via direct message when it comes to issues dealing with personal account issues, however, where we see a fit, we can do that publicly on threads. We understand how helpful that can be for all included in the conversation. Thank you for the feedback!
communitymanagers - Whitney et al.
I have no problem with the direct message, I think you guys do an effective job of solving all types of individual issues (which as you write, don't require broad based communication to the forum).
My point above was that the responses to the Status challenges (regardless of how many times or how many posts - at the time I wrote there were three specific/different Plat Challenge posts in a row) were so prompt it was as if there was an alert system - and fine by me, but hoping the same level of vigilance is applied to non-challenge inquiries.
My point was, I wished the response to thread questions, which often involved tagging you guys, (but even if they weren't tagged, usually by a new participant who wouldn't know the tagging procedure), I would hope an ongoing review would see the inquiry rather than going unnoticed - and I say unnoticed because I don't believe, given the demonstrated effective moderator involvement otherwise, that you would just ignore the request for CM clarification.
Rather than me going back through threads and finding five or six IAH cricket calls or other examples, I'll just highlight them in the future (which frequently vet Insiders in essence do, by tagging or re-tagging CMs two or three days later). That way there etiher won't be any more examples and the flow is enhanced, or you'll see the examples, tweak the system to catch in thread inquiries as effectively as Status Challenges, and the flow will be enhanced - the goal of my 'wish'. Thanks
erc - very well said. As a fairly new insider (2 months+), it took me about a month to figure out the tagging procedure. I totally agree a lot of duplicate posts on exactly the same topic. Kudos to all the vets who try to maintain a semblance of order by tagging in communitymanagers when appropriate. Add in the fact of the pure wealth of information I have gleaned from the vets, I am very pleased I joined the Insider forum, and want it to stay as fluid as possible.
Also, since I have a somewhat warped (dry) sense of humor, there have been numerous times where I could just enjoy a good laugh; many others make my day with some of the content they come up wit. Keep up the great work!
bejacob, some faith is restored on this rainy Friday morning. The ”extra” 2,000 bonus points hit today with the broadly applied correction. I am glad to know that those who didn’t call in got what they were owed. Good stuff!
This is one case where I feel Marriott did the right thing. If they could do the same with the bonus points hotels are supposed to post (Chasing The Local Bonus), I'd be even happier. I know that will be a bit harder as they have to get all the properties to understand the process and follow through.
Nothing worse than chasing points. Goodwill is indeed an odd term for your adjustment.
10,0000 points for me..Il take it!
Who should i contact if I haven’t received my points yet? I received my brand stay, but not the 2k per stay points.
I see I'm not the only one still waiting/wondering about the Summer Mega Bonus points.
Without a doubt it'll be Customer Service that needs to be contacted. I Just can't remember the t & c about when to expect the points to post
ojay, the Summer Bonus points posted in October. If you have some missing, by all means, you should get on the horn with the Marriott Rewards customer Service folks. The commitment was by the end of the month of October. They arrived earlier than that.... call and get what they owe you. Good luck!
Hi roxihilton and ojay,
Thank you for reaching out, we have sent you both direct messages to help!
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